Christians are normally tolerant people, except when it comes to the Intolerance of Gay people. This hatred and misunderstanding by them is in itself their right in America and they are exercising their ability to make decisions as they have been taught to. Therein lies the problem. “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it” (Proverbs 22:6).
The Christian religion and the Christian scriptures tout the intolerance of Homosexual behavior, indulgences and lifestyles. Writings in the Holy Bible, include Leviticus 20:13, which says..."KJV: (King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
There are other parts of the Bible which teach that we should be against the Gay people among us, simply because the Bible says so. If you ask a Christian why they hate Homosexual people you will more times than most get one answer..."The Bible tells me so..." a phrase they learn as a child, in a song. Another example is this one..." Romans 1 :26, 27...26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature, 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
I write this article simply because the Christian way of ridiculing the Gay community to the point of making them outcasts of the society and pushing some to the point of committing suicide, is just plain wrong and evil.
Tyler Clementi jumped to his death, off the George Washington Bridge a few days ago, his room mate and another friend are now being charged for possible hate crimes and could even be charged for manslaughter.
Raymond Chase hung himself recently...he was on of at least five suicides in the past few weeks, information that have come to light for most of us, since the interest in Tyler Clementi's suicide.
Raymond Chase hung himself recently...he was on of at least five suicides in the past few weeks, information that have come to light for most of us, since the interest in Tyler Clementi's suicide.
The predominant problem is bullying. Bullying of anyone causes them to think and do things that do not make much sense to the rest of us, but my interest in the subject right now is...where does the bullying start...who or what gives people the right or reason to bully others. I come up with only one answer....the Christian religion...in Romans, Leviticus, Mathew, Genesis and so many other passages in the Holy Bible.
If the Christian religion via its doctrines is being used as a weapon by these Bullies, and as the reason why they bully others, because the Bible calls for their Death, then we have to question the right of the Christian Church to exist if it causes members of the community to use its teachings to bully others into taking their own lives...as Death is called for by the Bible.
The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13)...punishment by death. It is quite clear that the Bible and its teachings has long been the weapon of choice by those hateful enough to use it as such. This opens the question...should the Bible and its religion be afforded special rights under the law, to exist and to keep legally teaching and espousing the practice of shunning and bullying of Gay People, which sometimes result in the consequent death of these victims... these Gay people. ..as ordered and encouraged by the Bible?
This article was written by the Author of the newly released book titled "Shock and Awe on America" which can be bought in print or for Kindle at Amazon.com
Or can be read in part or downloaded in different E-book formats at Smashwords.com
This article was written by the Author of the newly released book titled "Shock and Awe on America" which can be bought in print or for Kindle at Amazon.com
Or can be read in part or downloaded in different E-book formats at Smashwords.com
I would have agreed with your post 100% about 3 years ago, before I came to Christ. But I have to point out a critical misconception in your argument. It's true that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but it does *not* teach us to hate homosexuals. Instead, it teaches us to love them just as we are to love everyone else, as Jesus says in Matthew 19:19.
ReplyDeleteIt took me a long time as a Christian to accept that homosexuality is a sin as the Bible teaches, because I have many friends and some relatives that are homosexual. I thought that they were born that way, but I now see that it's not God's design but the effects of sin. Every human participates in sin, so Christians are not singling out homosexuals. I know personally that this is a hard mental hurdle to overcome.
In summary, true followers of Christ do not hate homosexuals. Instead, we love them so much that we want them to know that they don't have to choose this way of life, because Christ died for everyone's sins, including theirs. It may appear intolerant, but that is not how it is intended.
The bullying of Tyler Clementi was absolutely uncalled for, and it is an unfortunate example of ignorance and mean-spirited intolerance. I just want to make sure it's not associated with Christianity, because it has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.
Anonymous, thank you for taking your valuable time to visit, it is much appreciated. I respectfully understand your point of view. Having all the major religions in my immediate family, I understand your views from the religious angle as well. While it is the fashion to casually say that being Gay is a choice, I would direct you to the two chapters on Evolution in my book titled Shock and Awe on America, which you can read for free at this site...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.smashwords.com/books/view/16169
You can read 50% of the book there for free.
In short, I site scientific info to show that there are hormonal imbalances that our kids are now born with that cause them to turn out gay sometimes. Do you remember the mad scramble by the worlds largest chain store...Walmart...to take plastic baby bottles off its shelves last year? They lost millions in profits as a result. That is a direct result of the discovery by the public, of chemicals called BPA, an endocrine disruptor and also Phthalates, another endocrine disruptor that cause harm to children...
When it is introduced to the embryo inside the mother, it disrupts the eight-week stage of the fetus becoming a full girl or boy, and you get boys in a girl's body and vice-versa as a result.
An endocrine disruptor blocks the hormone testosterone, from changing the embryo into a real boy and it can physically become a girl, or a boy trapped in a girl's body, because the physical body has changed to a girl, but it is suspected the brain stayed wired as a boy.
Teeluck, thanks for your response. I read your two chapters on Evolution, but I didn't find any citations (perhaps they are in the second half of the book). Can you point me to some of the studies indicated Phthalates and Bisphenol A as causes for homosexuality?
ReplyDeleteIn some online research, I did come across one article on Pthalates that indicated "when the concentrations of two common phthalates in mothers' prenatal urine are elevated their sons are less likely to play with male-typical toys and games, such as trucks and play fighting."
However, the lead scientist Shanna H. Swan gave the following quote:
"Our results need to be confirmed, but are intriguing on several fronts," Swan said cautiously. "Not only are they consistent with our prior findings that link phthalates to altered male genital development, but they also are compatible with current knowledge about how hormones mold sex differences in the brain, and thus behavior. We have more work to do, but the implications are potentially profound."
This study essentially found that hormone-altering chemicals caused increased *femininity* in males. It is important to note that femininity is not homosexuality.
I agree that this is interesting research, but it is nowhere near conclusive. I would contend that anyone with a biased personal interest in proving that homosexuality has biological causes could convince themselves of scientific proof through preliminary research like this. However, that does not mean that the links have been established as fact.
Anonymous, You said this...
ReplyDelete"It's true that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but it does *not* teach us to hate homosexuals."
But Leviticus 20:13 clearly states to kill them.
"It took me a long time as a Christian to accept that homosexuality is a sin as the Bible teaches, because I ave many friends and some relatives that are homosexual. I thought that they were born that way, but I now see that it's not God's design but the effects of sin."
Suggesting that Homosexuality is nothing other than sin, hence I pointed out the info that suggests it can be medically induced. Why do you not provide me with a similar study, before you say it is sin, not science that is causing Gay behavior. We should be on level terms hereas I do not wish to be presumptious in my opinion.
You said..."I would contend that anyone with a biased personal interest in proving that homosexuality has biological causes could convince themselves of scientific proof through preliminary research like this. However, that does not mean that the links have been established as fact."
I ask you to remove that same bias and give some proof, so we can compare info.
Regarding Leviticus 20:13, remember that Leviticus is part of God's contract with the Jewish people, called the Mosaic Covenant. The legal penalty (death) that it mandates for homosexuality is intended for those adhering to the Mosaic Covenant. Furthermore, once Jesus was sacrificed he paid the debt for all sinners. Jesus' death fulfills the requirements of the Old Covenant! So the Mosaic Law should still be respected in spirit but the literal legal penalties are no longer required. Of course, if you do not approach God through Jesus, you will still experience the death that all sin brings (but we humans aren't the ones that inflict this judgment). Again, spiritual death from sin is not unique to homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteI was asking for citations because I'm honestly interested in reading the studies you used for your book (and I am still interested, if you have the articles handy). It has nothing to do with requiring proof from you. I enjoy reading up on matters like this and educating myself. However, you ask for a similar study that establishes that homosexuality is simply a sin, so I will point you to the very verse of Leviticus that you referenced. My arguments are based on my faith that the Bible is God's living word, and I myself need no further proof. (If you're interested in why I find the Bible to be compelling proof that Jesus is God, I'd be happy to discuss it.) My point here is that I haven't found any scientific proof that homosexuality has biological causes, so I have no reason to make that conclusion. On the other hand, God tells us that homosexuality is sinful behavior, so I have a reason to make *that* conclusion. Let me know if I'm not making my point well enough and I can expand.
I think the distinction in personal bias is that homosexuals (I was referring to them, not you) have a vested interest in proving that they have no choice but to be homosexual, since that would remove any potential guilt. By definition, I don't have the same kind of personal bias in this matter, because my personal guilt is not riding on this proof. Rather, it would actually benefit me socially if the proof turned out to be valid, because I would be able to claim that my homosexual friends and family are free from guilt. Unfortunately I know this to be false. Do you see what I mean?
Regarding Leviticus 20:13, remember that Leviticus is part of a contract between God and the Jews, called the Mosaic Covenant. Now that Jesus has paid the debt of sin for all humanity, the literal legal penalties are no longer required, because Jesus has fulfilled the contract! However, in order to avoid the death that all sin brings (not unique to homosexuality), you must come to God through following Jesus.
ReplyDeleteI was only asking for citations because I'm honestly interested in reading the studies. I enjoy educating myself on these topics. However, since you ask for a proof that homosexuality is nothing other than sin, I point you to the very Leviticus verse that you referenced. To follow the logic, I haven't found anything that scientifically proves that homosexuality has biological causes, so I have no reason to come to that conclusion. On the other hand, my belief in the Bible is based on my faith that it is God's living word, so I need no further proof that homosexuality is nothing but sin. If I'm not making my point clear, let me know and I can expand.
I think the distinction between the personal bias of the homosexuals (I was referring to their bias, not yours) and myself is that they have a vested personal interest in this proof because it would eliminate any potential guilt. I don't have this same personal interest because it doesn't affect my own conscience. On the contrary, I would benefit socially if homosexuality were proven to have biological causes because I could then claim that my homosexual friends and family members are guilt-free. Unfortunately I know this not to be true.
Hello Anonymous, I understand your willingness to believe in the religion of your choice, and I firmly believe that it is your right, as it is for others to believe in their religion of choice.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I can source verses in most religions which say that the religion you belong to is wrong and theirs is right. This certainly says that they, being understanding of religion, has proven to themselves beyond any doubt, that you are wrong, in your faith of the correctness of your religious decisions.
I say this simply to suggest that your firm idea that Jesus' death made everything right with the spilling of his blood, is in fact wanting of some sort of realistic understanding that this story is just that...a story which you choose to believe, without any proof. Why then do so many Christians still find the necessity to persecute others for their contrary religious beliefs or their lifestyles, Gay or otherwise?
As yet, my theory of there being biological reasons behind some people being gay, and even bi-sexual, hermaphrodites, and transexuals is not yet proven, but I do believe this would be proven, and see some preliminary results pointing to this, whereas you on the other hand, have no real intelligent basis for saying being Gay is a sin, as scriptures were just books written by arguably primitive thinking men, who would think a cell phone was the devil speaking from hell, whose deliriously written material were gathered and put together with their full biases intact, for example the banishing of women from many of the church's higher roles and indeed kept them like lowly pieces of furniture to be used and discarded, not to mention your God allowing certain immorality in the form of slavery.
The good news...your family are good people who are not wrong or sinners for the lifestyles they pursue.
Teeluck,
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your views. I recognize your faith in this scientific study without proof, just as you recognize my own faith. You are also correct that other religious writings directly contradict the Bible, which I believe is an important observation to make. I'm glad we're on the same page that there can only be one absolute truth.
In my case, I actually have all the proof I need that the Bible is indeed God's word. I was a devout atheist 3 years ago, and after studying various religions I came to believe that of all the "truths" out there (including the beliefs of atheism), Christianity had the most evidence to back it up. I'm sure this sounds like an outrageous claim to you, because your arguments sound very similar to my own three years ago. If you're interested, I would be happy to share some of the many forms of evidence that point to the Bible revealing the one absolute truth.
As for the Christians who persecute homosexuals, I would agree that they are taking the wrong approach. They are not following the teachings of the Bible, as I mentioned in my original post. Just to be clear, we are commanded to spread the truths in the Bible, not to persecute anyone for not believing these truths. This is critically important to understand. Wouldn't you want other people that you love to know what is true? I can tell that you do, because you also are trying to convince me that your beliefs (atheism) are the absolute truth.
I only have limited space in this post, so I will address your claim about slavery below.
As far as slavery goes, I'd like to point you to an article that I read recently, because I had the same question you did about slavery: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
ReplyDeleteIn a nutshell, the slavery we think of today is not the same slavery being referred to in the Bible. We think of racial slavery and involuntary slavery where people are captured and forced to work. The Bible explicitly and strongly condemns this kind of slavery (e.g., plaguing the Egyptians because they enslaved the Jews).
On the other hand, in the culture of biblical times people often chose to sell themselves in order to pay off debts that they could not meet, or to have themselves and their family taken care of by masters. The Bible does not comment one way or the other on whether this practice was wrong, but it does offer rules on how people who happened to be slaves should be treated.
Taking the whole Bible into perspective, the ultimate solution for ending racial slavery is to turn gracious towards others by experiencing God's grace.
Whenever I hear someone state that being gay is a choice I usually ask that person when/how they chose to be straight.
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting for a valid answer...
In addition, who would "choose" a lifestyle that is still ostracized in today's society?
That is a clever argument, J Mopper, but I do have a response for you on both counts. I'd rather discuss it in a private setting, because my intention is not to start a flame war here. Let me know if you're interested.
ReplyDeleteAnon: I'm not into "private discussions". Especially with those I do not know. I'm not religious so any scripture quotes would (1) get lost on me and (2) IMO be meaningless.
ReplyDeleteHappy to debate on this blog as long as Teeluck is okay with it.
Hey Guys, I would love to have a debate, after all, that's how we learn, right?
ReplyDeleteAlright, so to answer J Mopper's first argument, consider that sin has been in man's nature since Adam's fall. Also consider that the thought of a sinful action is itself a sin. Sinful lifestyles (whether it be homosexuality or adultery) always begin with sinful thoughts. This is in our nature, so it is to be expected.
ReplyDeleteHowever, after the first inkling of a sinful thought, you have a choice (we call this free will) on whether to act upon your thought. You can choose to continue to sin by taking action (committing adultery or murder, or pursuing a homosexual relationship), or you can run from sin like the Bible commands us.
Since every human was created differently, it is my hypothesis that every person is susceptible to different sins. I derive this theory from personal experience: I know that I am prone to a certain set of sins that others may not be. If this holds true, homosexuals will have been very susceptible to homosexual sin. They acted upon their sinful thoughts to the extent that they define themselves by their sin.
Considering this, it may not seem like a conscious choice to those that are not very susceptible to homosexual sin, because they were not tempted (or not very much) by that particular sin. This is how it is possible for a straight person to never have made a conscious choice to be straight (because he was not sufficiently tempted into committing homosexual sins), while a gay person by definition (from the Bible) made a conscious choice to pursue this particular sin.
Since I know that you both disagree with my basis (the Bible) for this reasoning, I ask that you analyze these arguments as if it were a hypothetical situation.
Anon said: "Sinful lifestyles (whether it be homosexuality or adultery)"...boom, you lost me!
ReplyDeleteI heard Pastor Warren use this analogy and it's an awful analogy. Adultery hurts the non-adulterer. Without quoting scripture how does homosexuality hurt those in the relationship?
I don't believe in "sin" and certainly do not believe homosexuality is sinful. It exists in other animal species so it is not something unique to humans.
Not to take things to a new level but the bible was written many generations ago by people. People who were grossly misinformed about human nature and the cosmos, in general. IMO quoting writings from it will never prove or disprove anything.
Well, that's where we diverge. I'll wrap up my visits to this blog by saying that the very fact that the Bible was written across many generations and by many people makes it a unique writing that should turn heads. No other "religious" writing can claim such diversity in authorship, and yet the Bible has such an incredible common thread throughout that it never ceases to amaze me. I have no doubt that every word is inspired by our God.
ReplyDeleteThe comparison of homosexuality to adultery is not an analogy: it's fact that both are sin. The fact that the God who created the universe tells us to avoid it is enough for me.
"it's fact that both are sin. The fact that the God who created the universe tells us to avoid it is enough for me."
ReplyDeleteYou can have your own opinions but you cannot have your own facts. Facts are derived via scientific principle and scrutiny. Your above statements are taken from a book and are, in no way, facts. There is no way to prove/disprove your statements so, by definition, they are not facts.
You can choose to disagree, that is your right.
The Koran and other religious books differ on many topics. Who's to say which is correct?
Anonymous, I think The J Mopper is correct that we cannot prove the Bible's accuracy because we cannot even tell who it was written by. As he asked, which other religious books are correct as they all differ on different topics?
ReplyDeleteSo saying one scripture is better or more correct than the other is weak at best.
What about the people who are born with the wrong Genitals, that is not a choice, so is some God trying to tell us something? Is this what he intends for us for the future?